Marianne Williamson got into a furious exchange with CNN anchor Anderson Cooper Thursday night as he grilled her on statements about anti-depressants and commentary she made when celebrities like Robin Williams committed suicide.
Cooper, whose brother Carter was undergoing treatment for depression when he committed suicide in 1988, interrogated Williamson for nearly 15 minutes on the issue.
The conversation got so heated that, at one point, Williamson told the anchor ‘I feel very little respect here.’
Marianne Williamson got into a furious exchange with CNN anchor Anderson Cooper about her previous comments on depression and the use of medication
Their conversation started off on a civil note with Williamson outlining her views.
‘What I believe is when we go through these issues of normal human despair, when we go through a divorce, when we have a pain over a breakup, when someone that we love has died, when we have been through a financial loss or failure, there is value sometimes in feeling the sadness, feeling that dark night of the soul,’ Williamson told him.
‘I agree with you,’ he said.
‘Well, then let me explain how I feel about that in relationship to antidepressants, if I may,’ she told him. ‘We have over the last few years taken this cheap yellow smilie face, put it overall human emotion, like happy, happy, happy. We have lost our sense that there are times when sadness is part of life.’
Cooper asked her: ‘If you’re on an antidepressant, you’re not numbing your pain, you’re actually trying to feel again, no?’
‘Well, some people would argue that. Some people not,’ she replied.
But as the interview went on, the back-and-forth between the two got more and more contentious.
Cooper asked her about an interview she did in a podcast with actor Russell Brand, where she called clinical depression ‘a scam.’
‘I’ve lived through periods of time that, by any means today would be called clinical depression, but even that’s such a scam. All that means is somebody in a clinic setting. There is no blood test, right? But if you’ve been there, you know it,’ she told Brand in the podcast.
Williamson apologized for the remark.
‘That was a glib comment and you’re right, Anderson, I have said that was wrong of me to say,’ she told him. ‘Do you know how many women in America are prescribed their antidepressants by their gynecologists? Do you know how many people are prescribed antidepressants after having talked to, even if it is a mental health professional, for ten minutes.’
He then grilled her about a statement she made after Robin Williams committed suicide in 2014.
‘A few months after Robin Williams died by suicide, you posting something I’m putting on the screen, implying antidepressants were the cause of Williams’ death. You wrote the truth about antidepressant helpful for some, harmful for others. Then you linked to this article that was clearly suggesting antidepressants played a role in his death. Do you know who wrote that article? That was by an organization funded by the Church of Scientology, which doesn’t even believe in psychiatry, doesn’t believe in psychiatric medicine for even serious mental illness. They even have a museum in Hollywood called psychiatry, an industry of death,’ Cooper said.
She responded she is not ‘some Tom Cruise about antidepressants.’ The actor has been vocal about his disapproval of the medication.
Cooper questioned Williamson about comments she made after Robin Williams (left) and Kate Spade (right) committed suicide
Cooper’s brother Carter was undergoing treatment for depression when he committed suicide in 1988; Carter and Anderson are seen with their mother Gloria Vanderbilt in 1988
‘Anderson, if somebody is helped by an antidepressant, I’m happy for them,’ Williamson replied. ‘And I have never argued that anybody who is on an antidepressant should get off an antidepressant.’
She added: ‘And not only that, I have always made it very clear, always made it very clear that if anything in my conversation makes people think twice about it, if, in fact, they are on it – that the last thing they should ever do is throw it away because getting off them, people must get off them – if they get off them – very, very carefully. So this idea that I, like I’m some Tom Cruise about antidepressants, I’m not and I never have been.’
Cooper expressed his concern that Williamson seems ‘to be sending a message about antidepressants in a blanket way or clinical depression. You’re saying you’re happy for somebody if it helps them. I don’t hear you saying, I encourage you, everybody, talk with a medical provider and see if this is just a regular sadness .’
Williamson, an author and spiritual leader, countered by arguing people can talk someone who is not a psychiatrist about their depression.
‘I believe that someone who is clergy, someone who is a psychotherapist who is not coming from a psychopharmacological perspective, someone who is a spiritual person is just as qualified an expert to talk about issues of deep sadness, even depression. It has only been in the last few years that this idea of the medicalization of depression has come up,’ she said.
She argued Americans are over medicated and pointed out Food and Drug Administration warnings that antidepressants could increase suicidal ideations for patients under 25.
‘We are living in a society now where somebody is going through just a normal breakup and somebody said, do you think you should be on something?’ she said.
But Cooper grilled her again about the article she posted with ties to Scientology, which opposes psychiatry and the use of antidepressants.
‘You’re relying on the Church of Scientology for factual background to your argument and that’s really not – would you appoint someone from the church of scientology to be head of CDC if you were president?,’ he asked her.
‘No, I would not,’ she said.
Anderson Cooper grilled Marianne Williamson about her views on depression for nearly 15 minutes
Cooper also referenced a tweet Williamson wrote when designer Kate Spade died by suicide, where Williamson wrote: ‘How many public personalities on antidepressants have to hang themselves before the FDA does something? Big pharma cops to what it knows. The average person stops falling for this. The tragedies keep compounding. The awakening should begin.’
Cooper asked her: ‘You do seem to be implying, A, Kate Spade was on antidepressants. I don’t think we have knowledge of nor is it anybody’s business. You seem to be linking, in the end, famous people with antidepressants and suicide. And many people who are on antidepressants have had suicidal ideation long before they were taking anti-depressants.’
Williamson pointed out that ‘pharmaceutical companies advertise on your show.’
‘I don’t know how many do ads on my show. So I don’t know what pharmaceutical companies,’ he replied.
‘You might want to look at it,’ she said.
‘I’m not impacting by who advertises on my show. I don’t know who advertises on my show. It is not of any interest to me. I’m sure it is to people in this company. But I don’t care. What I care about is people who are dying and there is a stigma seeking medical help for something that could save their life,’ Cooper snapped back.
Williamson complained she felt ‘very little respect’ from the anchor.
‘I feel very little respect here and very little opportunity to say what I believe. I think the person that had blanket statements said about them on this program is me. I never had the blanket conversation you are suggesting I had. When it comes to people that are suicidal, I have a 35-year career working with people in despair. A 35-year career working with people in crisis. I had a 35-year career working with people in pain. I have people who are sent to me to work with them. I have been up close and personal with people in their pain and despair for decades,’ she said.
And then she accused Cooper of offering ‘a complete mischaracterization and misrepresentation of my career.’
‘I am not saying you are glib in any way. You are deadly serious about this and you have very strong beliefs,’ he responded. ‘I don’t understand some of your public statements.’
‘Let me speak. Anderson, then let me speak. This is not a conversation we are having,’ she said. ‘You don’t let me explain. When people are taking anti-depressants who have had serious, serious pain and serious pain and depression in their lives. And they are helped by them, I am happy for them. I am happy for them.’
‘Clinically depressed people are not depressed just because the world is depressing. They have a chemical imbalance,’ Cooper said.
‘You are the one making the blanket statements that there is notice particular scientific evidence. You are talking about clinical depression as if there is a blood test. You can talk about chemical imbalance but you can talk about chemical changes that come about through yoga and through prayer. Chemical changes that come about through sugar and nutrition,’ she said. ‘Losing someone you love is hard. It is not a mental illness.’
Cooper then acknowledged where they are similar.
‘We are on the same page about overprescription of drugs and aggressive marketing campaigns by big pharmaceutical companies and young people should know the dangerous side-effects of the dangerous drugs,’ he said. ‘I think you have expressed your opinions tonight. Some of the language you used raised concerns. I think it is fair I ask the questions.’
‘I think it would be fair for me to have more opportunity to answer them,’ she replied.
‘I would love that and like the conversation to continue,’ he said. ‘I don’t mean to make you feel disrespected. Not my intention.’
After the interview, Williamson tweeted out an further explanation.
‘So let’s state it again. I’m pro medicine. I’m pro science. I’ve never told anyone not to take medicine. I’ve never fat-shamed anyone. And today there’s a new one: no I don’t support Scientology. The machinery of mischaracterization is in high gear now. Gee, did I upset someone?,’ she wrote.
And she also joked the interview was good debate practice.
‘I didn’t expect such an aggressive conversation with @AC360 but I figure it’s good rehearsal for debating Donald Trump,’ she tweeted.