Wisconsin Sen. Ron Johnson says he doesn’t recall President Donald Trump telling a quartet of U.S. officials to talk to Rudy Giuliani for guidance on Ukraine issues – although he hedged that if the comment did happen it ‘didn’t register’ with him.
Johnson made the statement in a letter to Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee as the Democratic-run panel embarks on its second week of public impeachment hearings. Johnson was present during pivotal moments on Ukraine – including a May White House meeting with key officials, and as a representative at the inauguration of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky.
He provided the information about Giuliani, who other officials describe as running an ‘unofficial’ Ukraine channel – former national security advisor John Bolton called it a ‘drug deal’ – while otherwise blasting the Democratic impeachment probe and suggesting Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman tried to put his own views above the president’s.
Sen. Ron Johnson, R-Wis. has written House Republicans about his interactions with the administration over Ukraine and with Ukrainian politicians
He referenced a May 23 Oval Office meeting attended by himself, U.S. ambassador to the EU Gordon Sondland, Energy Secretary Rick Perry, and special envoy to Ukraine Kurt Volker.
‘One final point regarding the May 23 meeting: I am aware that Sondland has testified that President Trump also directed the delegation to work with Rudy Giuliani. I have no recollection of the president saying that during the meeting,’ the Wisconsin senator wrote.
But then he allowed: ‘It is entirely possible he did, but because I do not work for the president, if made, that comment simply did not register with me. I also remember Sondland staying behind to talk to the president as the rest of the delegation left the Oval Office.’
Sondland has testified Trump did make such a request. He is set to testify publicly on Wednesday.
Johnson says he doesn’t recall Trump telling officials to talk to Giuliani, as Gordon Sondland testifies. But he also says Sondland met with Trump privately after a May 23 meeting with four U.S. officials
Johnson attended the inauguration of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky
Gordon Sondland testified Trump told officials to ‘talk to Rudy’ Giuliani
Sen. Ron Johnson wrote Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee Monday
Johnson writes he has ‘no recollection’ of Trump saying to talk to Giuliani, but says it is ‘entirely possible he did’
Sondland testified that ‘Rudy had some bad issues with Ukraine, and until Rudy was satisfied, the president wasn’t going to change his mind.’
He described the same meeting, saying Trump was ‘going on and on about his dissatisfaction with Ukraine. He didn’t even want to deal with it anymore. And he basically said, go talk to Rudy, he knows all about Ukraine.’
In Johnson’s telling, Trump ‘expressed strong reservations about supporting Ukraine. He made it crystal clear that he viewed Ukraine as a thoroughly corrupt country both generally and, specifically, regarding rumored meddling in the 2016 election.’
Johnson reviewed other people’s testimony and included it in his letter. He noted Volker ‘summed up this attitude in his testimony by quoting the president as saying, “They are all corrupt. They are all terrible people …. I don’t want to spend any time with that.” I do not recall President Trump ever explicitly mentioning the names Burisma or Biden, but it was obvious he was aware of rumors that corrupt actors in Ukraine might have played a part in helping create the false Russia collusion narrative,’ according to Johnson.
Johnson said Trump’s view was ‘strongly held’ and that he asked him to ‘keep his viewpoint and reservations private.’ Johnson favored providing $400 million in military aid that was being held up to Ukraine.
Johnson says on an August 30 call with Sondland, the diplomat was ‘describing an arrangement where, if Ukraine did something to demonstrate its serious intention to fight corruption and possibly help determine what involvement operatives in Ukraine might have had during the 2016 presidential campaign, then Trump would release the hold on military support.
He recalled an August 31 call with Trump where the president vented about Ukraine and Angela Merkel. ‘He specifically cited the sort of conversation he would have with Angela Merkel, chancellor of Germany,’ wrote Johnson. To paraphrase President Trump: “Ron, I talk to Angela and ask her, ‘Why don’t you fund these things,’ and she tells me, ‘Because we know you will.’ We’re schmucks. Ron We’re schmucks,’ he said.
Johnson says he told Trump withholding U.S. aid to Ukraine would look ‘horrible politically’ and would bolster the ‘”Trump is soft on Russia” mantra.’
Johnson writes he asked the president whether there was some kind of ‘arrangement’ where if Ukraine took ‘some action’ it would get the aid.
Trump exploded, using expletives and said of Sondland: ‘Who’s is that guy?’ Johnson said he felt ‘more than a little guilty’ for even asking.
In other parts of the letter, Johnson blasts the impeachment probe as an effort to ‘sabotage’ the Trump administration. He brings up Hillary Clinton’s emails and goes after Army Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman.
He says bureaucrats and staff members have ‘never accepted President Trump as legitimate.’ He says he and Vindman clashed during a country briefing where Vindman said it was policy to keep U.S. policy toward Ukraine and Russia separate, and that Johnson teed off, telling him: ‘How in the world is that even possible?’
He noted that the Constitution puts foreign policy powers within the hands of a ‘duly elected president’ and says bureaucrats should rely on their ‘powers of persuasion.’
Ukraine is fighting Russia following its annexation of Crimea.