Good evening, sir. Your name, please?
A: Mark Chapman.
Q: Mr. Chapman, I am Commissioner Coppola. With me today is Commissioner Cruse.
COMMISSIONER CRUSE: How are you, sir?
THE INMATE: How are you, sir?
Q: Good, sir. Thank you for asking. This is a reappearance for you today, one of many I know, we are aware of course, and I think you and I have met on two prior occasions I believe.
A: We have.
Q: I don’t believe I had ever conducted the lead interview. I know that we have had some question and answer period between us. You, sir, are continuing to serve your sentence of 20 years to life for murder in the second degree which you pled guilty to out of New York County; is that right?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: All right, sir. I just want to note I think the last time — well, I know for sure the last time that we spoke I wasn’t using these glasses so you will have to bear with me a little bit.
A: Of course. I use them too.
Q: Things change over time. You were sentenced before the Honorable Dennis Edwards; is that correct?
A: That’s right.
Q: Okay. That was August 20th of 1981, all right. So we have the sentencing minutes. Of course we are going to consider, you know, what was said at sentencing. You have very lengthy sentencing minutes. Both myself and Commissioner Cruse have been reading through them of course and we will consider things that were said by everybody involved in your sentencing as we formulate a decision, okay?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Now, I am going to ask you to bear with me. I think rather than try to summarize it, it’s best that I read the description. It is a little lengthy because there is a lot written here but it might be best for both of us and for the record that I just read the description, okay?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: All right. It states here that on December 8th, 1980 at about 10:50 PM and his wife were entering their residence at Manhattan when Mark David Chapman who had been waiting in front of the building all day called out to name. As turned, Chapman grasping a pistol with both hands fired five shots at (black) hitting him four times. A stunned doorman shouted at Chapman who let his now empty gun drop to the pavement. The doorman kicked it out of reach. Chapman took off his coat and jacket, folded and placed them on the street beside him where he stood quietly holding a paperback copy of J.D. Salinger’s Catcher in the Rye. Within minutes, Police Officer of the 20th Precinct arrived in response to a radio run of quote-unquote — or, in quotes, shots fired. Chapman was pointed out by people on the street and the officer ordered him to put his hands against the wall. Chapman put his hands on his head. When the officer repeated his order, Chapman put his hands against the wall. The officer went to pat the defendant down and handcuffed him. The officer recalls that he still did not know that anyone had been shot and that he believed there had been probably — or, I am sorry, believed there had probably been an attempted hold up. As people began to surge out of the archway of The the officer pulled Chapman in front of him as protection in case there were armed accomplices. Ironically, Chapman appeared — apparently, rather, apparently believed the officer was trying to shield him from any angry mob. As other police arrived, the officer handcuffed Chapman, put him into his patrol car, and took him to the 20th Precinct where he was placed formally under arrest. An ambulance removed where he was pronounced dead at 11:15 PM. The New York County Medical Examiner’s autopsy report dated the next day gives the cause of death as multiple gunshot wounds of the left shoulder and chest, left lung and left subclavian artery, external and internal hemorrhage, shock homicide. The gun was recovered from the scene. Police ballistics analysis described it as a .38 Special caliber Charter Arms revolver with the evidence of discharge in all five chambers. The loaded — and loaded with five .38-caliber discharged shells. The gun was tested as operable. The bullets were hollow point designed to be especially destructive. The assistant district attorney informs that in response to questions at the time of pleading, the defendant acknowledged using such bullets to be sure of infliction of death. The police officer reports that the defendant seemed alert and cooperative responding appropriately and coherently to the reading of the rights and to questions about the offense. Chapman fully admitted the offense and said that he did not know why he had done it, acknowledging no antipathy towards (blank). The officer states that the defendant initially seemed to be afraid that the police would hurt him or let others do so. After the officer assured him he would be safe, Chapman’s concerns were that the press not be allowed to access him and that his wife be notified before she learned of the incident from the media or be called by reporters. That is the end of the description. I am not sure if it was read entirely to you before or I know that you get these records when you prepare for your parole interview. And is there anything in there that you want to make mention of or dispute or question or anything like that?
A: It’s basically accurate.
Q: Okay. I think from our interviews in the past, you know, I do recall you saying, I don’t know if it was to me or one of my colleagues, that you did use the — you went to extensive efforts to get those hollow-point bullets because specifically you wanted to, and I will apologize if I am not a hundred percent clear, I could actually read it if I wanted to search for it but I thought you had said in the past that you — you didn’t want him to hurt or you wanted to make sure that he died or didn’t suffer. Am I right about that?
A: I — I secured those bullets to make sure he would be dead. It was immediately after the crime that I was concerned that he did not suffer.
Q: That he did not suffer, okay. There is one thing I do want to talk about because as you know, you know, your case is no secret. There have been books and articles and magazines, you know, discussing it in so many ways, shapes, or forms and you have never — I don’t believe that you have ever denied any of the details in why you did this. I don’t recall if we talked about this before but did you think — did you really think at the moment that the witnesses — that there would be an angry mob that would do something to you either at that scene or that something could happen while you were being arrested?
A: I didn’t think that before. After —
Q: I was a little surprised that I read that just now. I read it before but I read it now and I didn’t remember in the two interviews I participated in that actually coming up, that you were concerned about that.
A: Afterwards I was. I was maybe a little shocked myself and I am like, you know, anything can happen here.
Q: You mean immediately afterwards?
A: Immediately afterwards. I didn’t have those thoughts before. It wasn’t in my mind at all.
Q: What about when they took you to the police station, did you think that the police would harm you?
A: No. No, Officer was professional. He was kind. He was a big fellow and I knew that I probably would not be harmed once in their patrol car.
Q: Okay. When you were — you have — I don’t believe you have ever been out of custody since that day; is that right?
A: No, sir, no bail.
Q: No bail or nothing. Have you ever been in — either in the county jail in New York County or in the Department of Corrections, anywhere you have been, have you ever not been in some type of protective custody?
A: Never.
Q: Never. So even in the county jail. How long did it take before you actually made it to the state prison? I mean, I have a date here of 8/25/1981 and this occurred December 1980 so you spent some time in a local jail.
A: Well, I spent — the judge after my initial appearance in court ordered me to so I was there I would imagine — I can’t remember every day, but I would imagine it was about a week and then I think that they just had too much of that and —
Q: You mean had too much of that?
A: Yeah, I think there was just too much security concerns. It was a lot going on.
Q: Attention?
A Yes, sir. And about a week later or so they moved me to Rikers Island, Rikers Island to an entire tier. So from there until sentencing which I think was in August of ’81.
Q: Okay.
A: And then immediately after I came to Downstate facility for about six weeks, but in that interim at Rikers Island which was a number of months I was alone on a company, on a tier.
Q: Okay. Did you ever have any fears that even staff might try to harm you?
A: Never, never from staff.
Q: Okay.
A: And I was never around any other prisoners so, no, I can honestly say I didn’t have any fears, at least from my memory now.
Q: Did you — did you consult with your attorney about that? Were those your wishes as well at that time?
A: Yes, I followed his advice. So he went to the judge immediately and Dennis Edwards, because of that plea, gave me 20 to life instead of 25 to life but I told him the day of sentencing I said if you decide, sir, to sentence me to 25 to life, that’s fine, I don’t consider this a plea. I want to plead guilty regardless of your decision. So it was the right thing to do. It really was.
Q: Now, you were from Hawaii. You traveled from Hawaii to New York and, you’re right, we did talk about that and I know I have read other transcripts where you have discussed this. I believe, I am not sure, I was reading one transcript between a panel you had with he was commissioner then, and also Commissioner Ludlow and you did discuss that. And I thought, again, I might be wrong about which had asked you but one, I thought it was Commissioner Ludlow, had asked you why didn’t you turn it around because I know that you’re a very religious person now, right? You are I think Christian, right?
A: Christian, yes, sir.
Q: And we are going to talk about the letters of support you have from people who are involved in the church. But you had also been — you also had a strong faith then or you had faith then. I thought you said in that interview that you did — that when you did go back the first time that you were, I don’t want to say the words because I may be wrong but can you help me out there? I mean, do you remember the interview where you discussed that, yes, you did go back and you —
A: I went back to Hawaii, you mean, after the first trip to New York; is that what you mean?
Q: Yeah. What I am saying is, you know, people say, oh, a lot of people find religion when they come to prison but you had already been a man of faith before you committed this crime.
A: When I was 16.
Q: Wasn’t that partially why, a little bit of that struggle, you did not commit the crime originally when you thought about doing it?
A: I can’t say that was a partial reason. The reason was I just — because I wasn’t praying at that time. I had slipped so far from the Lord. You know, like the Prodigal Son. The Father let him go as far as he could. He didn’t chase after him. And then when the Prodigal Son realized this isn’t working for me, I have to come back, that happened to me in the last 25, 30 years. But at that time, I can honestly say that wasn’t a part of the factor. The factor was I saw a movie. I went to the movie theater. I saw a movie called Ordinary People, and I just had a strike of conscience and I called my wife and I said, honey, you know, I am coming back home. I said, I just can’t do this. And I told her on the phone what I was planning to do. And she said, come home right away, you know. And I said, I am coming home. I said, your love has saved me. So it was strictly conscience. And then I flew back and everything was fine for a while. I didn’t have those thoughts.
Q: How much time in between when you say a while?
A: Good question. I would imagine at least two months. I mean, it’s documented somewhere. At least two months, possibly three months.
Q: Okay.
A: And then the compulsion started building again. The thoughts started coming again, and it was a roller coaster after that.
Q: You also — I think, you had another chance a little closer to the incident and —
A: Yes.
Q: And this was discussed during an interview that I participated in where you did approach with an album and you asked him to sign your album.
A: Yes.
Q And I believe, I thought it was to me, that you had said that he was a very nice man, that he was nice to you.
A: He was incredible. I think about that every day.
Q: I asked you — I think I asked you, well, with that, why didn’t you — when you went back, I think you said you went back to your room, why didn’t you say, okay, well, nice guy, I am not going to do this? I think you said that you were too far in at that point or something.
A: I was too far in. I do remember having the thought of, hey, you have got the album now, look at this, he signed it, just go home but there was no way I was going to go home. But I did say — you brought up my relationship with the Lord. I do remember that particular time period after he left and got into the car after he signed the album, that was about eight hours earlier. I do remember, you know, praying and saying, God, just, you know help me here so I did reach out that day and say help, you know. So there was a definite — there was a tug of war there that you wouldn’t believe but ultimately my decision. You know, the devil can’t make us do what we don’t want to do and God certainly gives us freewill so the guy who is responsible is sitting right here in front of you.
Q: Okay.
A: And my decision, bad decision.
Q: Okay.
A: Selfish decision.
Q: Okay.
A: And I just gave in. You know, I gave in before. You know, I wouldn’t have made the second strip unless I was sure so there was no coming back.
Q: Okay.
A: But I did at least — I just want you to know, I did at least try and pray and say, God, just help me, don’t let this happen, but you said it, too far in, and I was too far in.
Q: Okay, all right. Now, the only other thing I want to touch upon is about the offense and the period right after it happened and also which actually brings in your current — your status. Now, you have been in protective custody and I think the technical phrase is involuntary protective custody I think.
A: Yes, sir. It’s what they choose to — I refuse protective custody so they said, well, we have to think about the facility. We have to think about you. We’re going to put you in, you know, without you, you know, having any say-so which I understand. I understand that.
Q: In the time period immediately that it happened, any thoughts of if anybody would try to harm you? I know, I am sure, in the hectic situation that was going on but all these years do you accept the fact or do you agree with the decision by the Department that — because here is a chance for your own safety and the safety of others because when fights happen, people get hurt, COs and other people get unfortunately drawn into breaking up fights and they get hurt, you know, or worse. Do you accept the fact that due to the person that you — you know, that you murdered and the amount of pain that’s out there not only to people who just are in suffering but also those who might want to kind of do what you did? I mean, you did this to take his fame, take on his fame or, you know, I think at one point you had said, you know, instead of fame it was infamous that somebody else may, whether out of being a fan of the and or just out of wanting the notoriety of ithat they would harm you, most likely kill you, if you were out, say, in the yard or anywhere in general population?
A: I understand the Department’s policy and I absolutely agree with you.
Q: Okay. And the same thing that an officer or a staff member, even a civilian staff member could possibly get hurt in the process.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. The same goes if you’re released, that there has to be some type of recognition of, I don’t know if there has ever been a time where they have provided security for any person who has been released from incarceration but there would no doubt have to be recognition of special circumstances because of not only any person that might want to harm you, for whatever reason it may be, but also the mass amount of press. I mean, no different than — I don’t know how familiar you are with it but I try to just, you know, give the example of Princess Diana and the press hounding her and really that’s why she is — you know, she is dead now because the press, you know, they were trying to get away from the press.
A: That’s correct.
Q: So dangerous situations, a dangerous environment can be created, right?
A: That’s right.
Q: And you recognize that and do you accept the fact that because of specifically really who you murdered, that that’s the situation you find yourself in?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay, all right, thank you. Now, I want to talk about your institutional record and to be honest with you I wish there was a little bit more to talk about. We know that you have not engaged in the normal programming that most people that are incarcerated would engage in, whether it be substance abuse counseling, you know, vocational programs, things of that nature but because of your extensive status in protective custody. I do know you’re an administrative clerk, right? Is that what you —
A: I was.
Q: Oh, you were? You’re not anymore?
A: Well, after what happened a few years back, they did away with all the clerks.
Q: Oh, I didn’t know that.
A: But I am still a porter there in the block.
Q: Okay.
A: Painting, cleaning up and all kind of painting. And I have a job here at the hospital where I am speaking from in the basement. For four years I have fixed wheelchairs and I strip and wax the floors which were a lot and later did a little painting and things like that.
Q: Do you do all these activities completely alone or with a CO present?
A: No, never alone, with an officer.
Q: With an officer but, I mean, no other inmate or any other general company around, just the officer?
A: Just in the basement on the weekends.
Q: Okay.
A: In the dialysis unit painting, cleaning, that type of thing.
Q: Always by yourself. Do you — I know that you must read an awful lot. What do you do with your other time? I mean, you can’t program of course so what do you engage in that you think has helped you or made you any better than what you were before, the person that you were before and the struggles that you dealt with before and specifically that caused you to commit this crime?
A: My wife and I have a ministry called (blank) It was founded about 13 years ago. What we have done is we have written three brochures. One of them is based on the parole board hearing in 2012. I don’t know if it’s in your records or not, but there’s a pastor that has sent these brochures to you before. He told me he did. I certainly didn’t ask him to, but the other brochure is what we call a testimony of my life and what happened that night December 8th and the other one is a fiction story I wrote at Attica years ago called The Prisoner’s Letter. It talks about a man who meets Jesus in a prison cell the night before the crucifixion. What we do is we take these brochures. We put them inside a cover letter and we send them to prison ministries all around the world and any individual, any church that’s interested in, you know, helping out prisoners to find another way. We believe that Jesus is that way and that He can change lives if you ask Him into your life. That’s what’s happened to me. And we like to give somebody a door. Jesus said He is the door so we say, here, you don’t have to be in a gang, you don’t have to do drugs, you don’t have to do stupid things, you don’t have to come back here. The recidivism rate is too high as it is. You don’t have to come back here. So here’s another door here. So if you get to a place where this isn’t working for you, all this garbage that’s floating around you, here’s the door. Here is Jesus. Call out to Him. He loves you. He will forgive you. He will save you, and He will make your life a whole lot better. That’s what’s happening for me and my wife and we like to — we feel that we should share that news using this case as an opportunity because of people have heard about it. These prisoners open these things in a heartbeat. Let’s be honest. They will just open it up and read it and we have had a lot of success through the years with this. It’s free, absolutely free. We don’t charge anything. We have a board of directors that watches and, you know, makes sure everything is kosher but it’s about Jesus, just like the ministry says, all about Jesus. We have been doing this now for a while.
Q: So I mean —
A: That’s my passion and that’s what I spend my time on to answer your question.
Q: That’s a lot — I thought so because I have read an awful lot about, you know, what you have been doing and some of your letters of support I think reflect that. Now, you said that based on the interview in 2012, did I hear you correctly?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What was it about that interview?
A: The first board that I was here at Wende was in 2012. I believe it was August 22nd and it was just great. They just — as you are doing, they just let me speak and I started telling them about, you know, how God had changed my life, that I was no longer, you know, this self-centered monster anymore and that I was able to think about somebody else for the first time. And the way that started wasn’t through me reading a book or through a program, it was through actually feeling, you know, loved by God regardless.
Q: You’re saying that that was the first time in 2012?
A: Well, that was the time I had told them about it. This had been happening a few years back, but I told them it was relatively new to me to feel that love. I knew for a long time, but once you feel His love you feel that, you know, now you can get back. You feel accepted. You don’t have to look for other means of acceptance or to validate yourself. You know, psychology is all about validating yourself. Jesus is about, hey, I love you, period, regardless of what you have done and that’s a huge step forward for anybody.
Q: And that’s very, you know, thoughtful and insightful of you too to say that. You did have prior interviews before that, that’s why I was curious.
A: Yes.
Q: Are you saying that at that 2012 interview you had the opportunity to get a lot of that out? Is that what you mean?
A: Yes, yes. This is how I say it —
Q: Well, I thank you because I was on that panel.
A: Oh, you were?
Q: I was, your first time — when you first got to Wende?
A: Then you’re in the brochure. You’re quoted in the brochure.
Q: Really? I am not sure which quotes I am under but now you’ve got my curiosity.
A: I will have them sent to you. I just put it together now, yes, sir.
Q: I do remember — I remember that distinctly. I was a newer commissioner back then, but I also know that Commissioner Crangle had asked you I think that was your first — you were relatively new to Wende, and he asked you what you thought of Wende compared to Attica. I am almost sure he asked you that. It was lengthy. I can find it, but I am pretty sure Commissioner Crangle had asked you that and that’s why I remember it was your first interview from Wende because they had moved you from Attica, right, spent many years in Attica?
A: They moved me in May and in August was the parole board. And you had to remember when I was talking about, hey, you know, I used to be and now God has shown me that He loves even me, convicted murderer, and so that’s given me hope and I am able to say, okay, I don’t need to, you know, get validation over here or drink or do anything stupid. Now I have got some stability. I have got Jesus in my life which just knowing Him is just incredible. That’s what’s changed every day. This may never change. I may see you for 20, 30 more years but —
Q: I don’t plan on being here for 20 or 30 more years but thank you anyway.
A : But just, you know, just knowing Jesus, just being here in prison has helped me find Him in a deeper way and that has made all the difference in my life. He is using me and my wife to spread that message. That’s basically my life now. That’s what I am doing now. That’s basically it.
Q: I am sure you’re not surprised, I have your risk and needs assessment, the current one that I’m looking at was dated 5/25/2018. Do you recall sitting down with your counselor?
A: The COMPAS?
Q: It’s the COMPAS, yep, your risk and needs assessment. And we will consider, you know, the results of this assessment of course. They rate you as low and unlikely in all categories. I am a little surprised though at the one and, again, I didn’t conduct the interview last — you know, the last two times that I saw you and I am not sure if I saw — well, the COMPAS is a little newer but reentry substance abuse was four, probable, and I don’t recall any records of you having any issues with drugs or alcohol, were there?
A: Here is my drug history: When I was a teenager, 13, 14, 15, I did all kinds of drugs. That’s no secret. That’s in the brochure about my life and what happened. Then I met the Lord and I stopped. At 16, I just stopped. I didn’t need drugs anymore.
Q: Okay.
A: I cut all my hair off, I changed my clothes. I started telling people about Jesus. No drugs since that time, maybe one incident. Then I started drinking which, you know, alcohol is a drug, maybe a worse drug in some people’s opinions, so that didn’t help but my entire incarceration time I have had numerous, you know, analysis tests, never positive for anything.
Q: Okay.
A: Thirty-eight years. There is no drug problem.
Q: Yeah, I am not — I am not sure. You know, we don’t design this. Commissioner Cruse and I, of course, don’t have anything to do with this. It’s just that I think, I am almost sure, that if there is any time in your life you had any drug use or substance abuse of any kind that you’re going to wind up having some type of a score but everything else is low and unlikely. Of course reentry financial unlikely, low family support it says unlikely, it’s a four out of ten, which you don’t have any children, right?
A: No, sir.
Q: Okay. So I know your wife of course has written. Real quick before I forget, your disciplinary record consists of three Tier II tickets, delayed count, unauthorized exchange, and direct order, ’89, ’90, and ’94. The Tier III of course we don’t count against you because that’s IPC confinement. That’s not —
A: Yes.
Q: — through any fault of your own. So no drug tickets or any other tickets like that, no violent tickets, all good of course. With regard to your — as I was noting your COMPAS risk and needs assessment and the low family support unlikely, I mean, your wife, you know, I don’t know her of course but she has stayed with you through all this time and —
A: She has.
Q: — we do see — we do see a lot of inmates, by the way, that have been incarcerated for a long time and it does surprise me that their wives were with them prior to incarceration and stay, 20, 30 years later.
A: Yes.
Q: Your wife — and there are very few I think, but your wife definitely has. She writes a nice letter of course, right? She writes a nice letter on your behalf and I am not going to read the whole letter into the record.
A: Sure.
Q: I read the whole thing word for word, but I did note something here. ‘Since 2005 we have worked together by phone in our Christian evangelistic literature distribution ministry called right?
A: Yes.
Q: ‘Our materials including our testimony have been used by God to bring prisoners in the U.S. and many African countries to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.’ I want to the ask you this, am I misunderstanding this, ‘our materials including our testimony have been used by God’, I am not — and I am not going to — I am just curious, I mean, been used by God. Do you think that she meant by the church or by churches? By God, I mean, it does sound kind of —
A: She just said — and I know what your point is and I understand it. Maybe a better way to say it would be that God has wanted us to have this ministry, blessed us with this ministry, and used the quotes we have from the Bible in our materials to bring people to the saving — to the saving knowledge of Christ which is better than — most people just have a regular knowledge that, yeah, He is a good guy, died on the cross. The saving knowledge of Jesus is saying this isn’t working for me anymore, forgive me. That’s the saving knowledge and our materials try to do that.
Q: Okay. So in a sense through the many avenues of God or something to that effect, right?
A: Exactly.
Q: All right. She did talk about, I believe it’s in her letter, I am not sure if it was in this letter or another but she did talk — I thought she talked about an inmate who you did have contact — did you have contact with another inmate, somebody who you know or through any kind of —
A: A lot of inmates I’ve had contact with, sir.
Q: Yeah. Again, you have a thick file so if I am making a mmistake, I apologize but I am almost sure that there was discussion somewhere — oh, yes, ‘because of his administrative protective custody classification, Mark is not able to participate in any self-improvement programs. However, he has been an excellent worker at Wende and completes whatever task he is assigned to as porter. He also goes out of his way to do acts of service for other inmates. I write to an inmate at another New York prison who spent time with Mark and is always telling me how Mark cared for him and how he misses and loves my husband. Mark puts the needs of others before his own.’ So I am assuming you know who is?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Okay. How do you interact with other inmates in your protective custody status? Is it through the pamphlet only?
A: No, I am able to talk to people on my company. Because I am a porter, sometimes I will talk to people that are coming down the stairs to go to a visit or out to the yard. I interact with people.
Q: Okay. So just, you know, paint this picture for me so I fully understand because I am not a hundred percent sure if my thoughts of protective custody and the actual physical nature of it are the same as what they are.
A: Yes.
Q: I believe, I believe one time before I was a commissioner I was going through Attica and I am pretty sure I saw you through a window in your cell. At that time, there were doors. Nobody else was out. I believe in the back maybe there was a small caged in area for you to go out to the outside air. I am not positive if I am right but —
A: Is that Wende, sir?
Q: Excuse me?
A: This was at Wende, sir?
Q: No, at Attica.
A: At Attica, oh, okay.
Q: Yes, I was actually touring the facility when I worked for the Board of Parole and I believe, I don’t know who your counselor is but one of the counselors here was actually with us on that walk that day so my thought of your protective custody was not even able to communicate with anybody but I do know that sometimes there is some yelling that goes — talking through the bars, things like that.
A: Sure.
Q: When you just say passing in the hall, you’re able to pass other inmates even with your —
A: Not the general hall but inside the block there are small hallways.
Q: Okay.
A: If I am doing the feed up or I am sweeping and mopping and somebody walks by the door on the visit, we don’t have any physical contact but I am able to speak to them briefly but at Attica, sir, I was out of my cell for