‘I can’t believe this late flourish that I’m having,’ says Lesley Manville, beaming with happiness. ‘It just keeps on giving!’
She’s about to star in the third and final series of the brilliant BBC comedy Mum, playing the kind and loving widow Cathy, surrounded by a family of not-always-lovable fools, and slowly falling for her old friend Michael. It’s hugely popular, for reasons Event’s TV critic Deborah Ross explains below, but that’s not all. Suddenly, to her own astonishment, at the age of 63, Manville is Hollywood hot property.
Suddenly, to her own astonishment, at the age of 63, Lesley Manville is Hollywood hot property
‘I don’t really share this much, except to my very close friends, because you’ve got to let off steam to somebody about how extraordinary it is,’ says Manville, hand fluttering briefly as if to fan herself. ‘And the enormity of how it has shifted things. Everything has changed.’
Scripts and offers are flooding in since she was Oscar-nominated for her role in Daniel Day-Lewis’s 2018 film, Phantom Thread. After decades of working ‘under the radar’ – as she puts it – in the theatre, on television and in Mike Leigh movies such as High Hopes, Secrets & Lies and Another Year, Manville was thrust into the brightest spotlight of all. ‘I got to go to the Oscars with my sister and my son!
‘But, oh my God, it was a mad dash. I was on stage in the West End on the Saturday, got home at midnight, only had time to wash my hair and catch two hours’ sleep, then I was on a plane in the early hours.’ The Oscars were that Sunday night. ‘I got there with an hour-and-a-half to get ready.’
She rarely gives interviews and hasn’t talked about this publicly before, but there was something else remarkable about that night – her ex-husband Gary Oldman was also up for an Oscar, for his role as Sir Winston Churchill in Darkest Hour. The Hollywood media went wild at the idea of divorcees being nominated at the same time, and there was even talk of ‘fisticuffs on the red carpet’ – particularly since he had walked out on her in 1989, when their child Alfie was only three months old.
‘I had a son to bring up,’ she says, sounding matter-of-fact rather than bitter after all these years. ‘I was 32 and I had a baby. I wanted to carry on working and I did. I must have been knackered. I was up at dawn and looked after Alfie all day. Then my sister, who was working for me, would come and do teatime and bedtime. I’d go to do Miss Julie or Top Girls. Nice light plays!’
Somehow she gave her all to those far from light works. ‘I wouldn’t have had it any other way. I never wanted to stop working. And also I didn’t want to be a slovenly mother – not bothering, just phoning in motherhood because I was working. I wanted to be the best mother, with a proper meal on the table every night, and proper things in the lunchbox. All of that. And I’ve done it. That’s my biggest achievement, I think.’
‘I got to go to the Oscars with my sister and my son! But, oh my God, it was a mad dash’
Did she feel that way because Gary had abandoned them? ‘No, I’m just like that – I’m quite a perfectionist in my life and my work.’
That’s easy to imagine. Manville is friendly and engaging but happily describes herself as ‘a control freak’ and looks very much like she’s got it together in her chic, cream baggy pants with matching boots, Breton striped top and leather jacket. She speaks with the diction and bearing of someone who has spent a lifetime on the stage. Does Alfie appreciate what she did for him? ‘Oh, yes. We’ve got a really nice relationship. We do argue, but we’re very close.’
Oldman later admitted that work and alcoholism had made him ‘anxious, neurotic and hell to live with’ – but he moved in with the much younger Uma Thurman soon after taking off to America. His fifth wife, Gisele Schmidt, attended the Oscars with him, while Manville is single and walked the red carpet with Alfie, now a cameraman. So just how awkward was this public reunion?
‘Gary and I are fine. We’re friends. We’re more than fine. People wanted to make something of it that didn’t exist. Christ almighty, we’re 60. We’ve got a 30-year-old son. Come on!’ She does understand why there was such interest. ‘I even stayed sober for one night in LA at the Oscars so that I could do a live interview on the Today programme. Something should be made of it, for the sake of our son. Very few children have been to the Oscars and seen both their parents nominated. It was nice because Gary was there with his wife – who I get on with very well – his other two sons and my son. We’re grown-ups.’
In her eagerness to demonstrate that they’ve worked out their differences, Manville even reveals that the two former partners are planning to work together again.
‘Gary’s asked me to be in a new film he’s hoping to shoot soon. So of course we’re fine. It’s a film about Eadweard Muybridge, the man who invented film.’ The Victorian photographer devised camera techniques that laid the foundations for the motion picture industry. He also shot and killed his wife’s lover, but was acquitted by a jury on the grounds of justifiable homicide. ‘It will be amazing.’
And although she did not win the Oscar for best supporting actress last year (Oldman did win best actor), Manville says she has been almost overwhelmed by offers since then. ‘You get inundated with scripts and immediately I got offered a film with Liam Neeson, Normal People, that’s virtually a two-hander. It comes out at the end of this year.’
Neeson got himself in a lot of trouble earlier this year by confessing that in the past, after the rape of a friend, he had taken to prowling the streets with a cosh, hoping ‘some black b******’ would come out of a pub looking for a fight. He was actually expressing shame at having had those feelings and drew support from Whoopi Goldberg and the England footballer John Barnes, but others called for his films to be pulled. Did that put Normal People in danger?
Manville draws in breath, pulls back her shoulders and says: ‘I’m not going to talk about it at all… except to say that Liam is one of the nicest gentlemen I’ve ever worked with. And he’s a friend.’
Is she just like Cathy in Mum, who insists on seeing the best in people? ‘Oh, I don’t compare to Cathy. I’m kind, but I’m a bit more judgmental than she is. I’m from this chippy world of acting, where people are beautifully acerbic, funny, and sarcastic and cutting. I enjoy all of that. It’s banter.’
Still, she is firmly supportive of Neeson then quickly moves on. ‘Then I got a film I haven’t shot yet, called Dali Land, about Salvador and Gala Dali. I’m going to play Gala. Last week I was filming the new series of Harlots [in which she plays the madam of a high-class 18th-century brothel], then preparing for the film Let Him Go with Kevin Costner and Diane Lane.’
Does Manville thrive on all this new attention? ‘My sister can’t believe I’m not exhausted. It is overwhelming at times, but I do sort of feel I’ve earned it. I’ve put in decades of doing what I feel were the right jobs. I’ve never sold out. I’ve never sought fame. So I’m genuinely loving it and I’m hoping it will last, but it will only last if I keep turning out the work.’
Does she wish this had all happened before? ‘No. I’ve had an amazing, steady career. And I’m grateful for that. A lot of young people who get success very quickly come under huge pressure to maintain it and that is very hard. Especially if they’re good-looking, because if you’ve built a career based on your good looks when you’re young, it’s very difficult to carry on in a real and proper vein.’ Has she come under any of Hollywood’s infamous pressure to go under the knife?
‘No. I went to a lot of meetings while we were there, and the reaction I got is: ‘Oh, you’ve done nothing to your face, isn’t that great!’ If I suddenly started doing all that, it would make nonsense of this career I’ve had for 40-plus years. I’m setting myself up as somebody who likes to play characters. This Bible-bashing mad woman with a gun that I’m playing in Let Him Go isn’t going to have gone under the knife in 1963. Just leave it alone.’
Manville grew up in Brighton, where her father was a taxi driver, and at the age of 15 she started commuting to the Italia Conti stage school in London. She declined the chance to join the steamy TV dance troupe Hot Gossip. ‘I thought, I can’t wear stockings and a suspender belt on telly with my dad watching! He wasn’t a prude – it was more that I was a bit of a prude. I was a good girl. I never broke the rules.’
Just like Cathy in Mum, then? ‘I am a good girl at heart, so there is a bit of Cathy there, but the other side of me is very driven and single-minded.’
Her father couldn’t believe it when she gave up a perfectly good, lucrative part on the soap Emmerdale Farm to concentrate on theatre. ‘My dad was like, “What are you doing? Why would you want to do plays?”’ But Manville went on to have a truly illustrious and highly acclaimed career on stage, from her early days at the Royal Court through numerous leading roles at the National Theatre, The Old Vic and with the Royal Shakespeare Company to her performance in Ibsen’s Ghosts, for which she won the Olivier in 2014. This was the pinnacle of her career at the time, and she said: ‘Ghosts is my Olympic moment.’
Manville with ex-husband Gary Oldman in 1985. ‘Gary and I are fine. We’re friends. We’re more than fine… Christ almighty, we’re 60′
There was no way of knowing that the Hollywood legend Paul Thomas Anderson, director of There Will Be Blood and Magnolia, would call her out of the blue, having seen her in the Mike Leigh films he loved.
But before that happened and she got really famous, the director Richard Laxton approached Manville in 2016 about making Mum, and had some persuading to do.
‘My only experience of comedy was 25 years ago, a series called Ain’t Misbehavin’ with Peter Davison,’ says Manville. ‘It was well written, but you had to be funny. I didn’t enjoy it. I wasn’t very good.’
Laxton sent a script and a box set of Him And Her, a series also written by Mum creator Stefan Golaszewski and shot in a very similar, low-key way. The actors play the drama and not for laughs, although they certainly come. In Mum, we see the craziness of the family from Cathy’s point of view as she tries to keep going, do her best and be kind.
‘Just the slightest twinkle from Cathy, and the audience knows what it’s going to mean,’ says Manville.
Series one began just after Cathy had lost her husband Dave. Series two saw her become increasingly – but very slowly – close to old family friend Michael, before she finally declared her love. Now, at the start of the final series, they are together, but haven’t broken it to her son or anyone else yet. ‘I love the way the writer does that,’ she says. ‘We last saw them tentatively holding hands. At the start of this series she just gives him a very casual kiss on the lips, when she’s showing him the bedroom she is staying in.’
The inference is that they have made love. ‘You don’t see them having sex. You don’t see them having passionate kisses.’ Is that a relief? ‘Yes. You wouldn’t want to go there really, but I knew they were going to get together.’ The pair have such joy on their faces, as if they can’t believe their luck.
Event’s Deborah Ross on the achingly slow romance that makes Mum so irresistible
There’s so much that is truly great about Mum. The performances. The characters. The writing. The way it rings true. This may sound like an odd thing to say, but I love the way Cathy was always scrubbing pans or folding laundry or clearing tables, because that’s what women do spend half their lives doing.
Two series in, and Cathy and Michael (Peter Mullen, above, with Manville) have only tentatively held hands
And it doesn’t portray older people as washed-up, shrivelled husks. Instead, they have hopes and they have dreams and can fall in love, albeit achingly slowly.
Two series in, and Cathy and Michael (Peter Mullen, above, with Manville) have only tentatively held hands, and while we do wish they’d bloody hurry up – kiss her, Michael! Just tell him how you feel, Cathy! – we also don’t. The romance is drawn out, but it is drawn out so beautifully and skilfully, it could never be any other way.
This is also about a woman slowly and tentatively finding herself again, and finding a life again. After all, scrubbing pans and folding laundry and clearing tables does only take up half of it. Or possibly 92 per cent. I may have underestimated there.
We cared for Cathy – who is, in a sense, our eyes and ears; we see all the other characters from her point of view – right from the first moment of the first episode of the first series. She was in pain. Her husband had just died. But she’s a mum, so her needs don’t come first, which is what happens if you’re a mum. She is so relatable it’s like you know her personally.
She vividly sees the shortcomings of everyone around her, as do we. Her son and his girlfriend are kindly but thick. Her brother is dating a monster. Her in-laws are selfish and unpleasant. But she is patient and full of understanding, and quietly gets on with it. The only person who sees her in the round is Michael, the family friend who’s been in love with her since forever.
It’s billed as a comedy, and it is, but it’s not a boom-boom-gag comedy – even though there are some sublimely comic lines. But that’s not where its heart is at. Instead, it’s in the relationship between Cathy and Michael, and the progress (or lack of progress) of that relationship. It is nail-biting as well as extraordinarily moving. It’s about two middle-aged people wanting to reach out to each other for a second chance, but also they’re frightened about reaching out for each other. Not that that’s ever spelled out. It doesn’t have to be.
It is perfectly scripted by Stefan Golaszewski, and perfectly performed by Manville and Mullen, both masters of restrained emotion. I can’t wait for series three to start. At the end of the last episode, Cathy did, finally, begin to tell Michael how she felt, but we don’t know how this is going to play out. Will they get it on? Properly? I’m hoping so, but I’m only sure about one thing: she’ll still be folding laundry. And clearing tables. And scrubbing pans. Because that’s what women do.
‘I think younger people – 20- and 30-year-olds – don’t think of anybody aged 60 falling in love. They don’t really imagine that all those feelings an 18-year-old in love has – all those butterflies, uncertainties and insecurities, all that joy – is the same for everyone, whatever your age. That’s an emotion and a set of feelings that we never lose. Thank God! I love Mum for showing that.’
The characters are also very understated. ‘I love the fact that Cathy and Michael are not glamorous, they’re not thinking about how they look. They’re good, kind, thoughtful people. They’re intelligent. They’re very in touch with their own feelings and emotions and reality. They have a very acute understanding of the people around them.’ The cast and crew all stayed in the same hotel and found a local pub to eat and drink. ‘Lots of times, someone would spot one of us up at the bar – say Lisa [McGrillis, who plays Kelly] – and they’d go: “That’s her from Mum!” Then they’d turn around to see where she was taking the drinks and we would all be sitting there!’
Manville with son Alfie Oldman at the Oscars ceremony, 2018. ‘We’ve got a really nice relationship. We do argue, but we’re very close’
How are people with her? ‘Mum is the thing I get stopped in the street most about. They say very kind things. They love the series. When I say it’s back in May but this is the last series, they can’t bear it.’
So why is Mum finishing? ‘Stefan wants to move on to other things. But it’s got a nice finite ending and why would you do any more? Either they get together or they don’t. Either way, that’s it.’ We don’t see so-called late love like this on the television much, do we?
‘No, but I think that’s shifting very slowly. Women and men of my age want to see themselves represented. And there are those actresses who are just carrying on – not just Judi Dench and Maggie Smith, but Helen Mirren, Meryl Streep, Annette Bening…. We are fronting films. And all those female-led films like Mamma Mia!, Quartet and The Best Marigold Hotel that have been huge box- office successes have made studios think: ‘We can have a film about a 50-year-old that people want to see!’
She says ‘we’, but those women are older than her. Thanks to her sudden Indian summer, Manville is now poised to lead a new generation of female actors taking on those kinds of roles. ‘Those actors have opened up the way for us, absolutely. I’ve always felt my life was a slow burn. I’m pleased with the way it has all turned out. Delighted, really. I can’t wait to see what happens next!’
The final series 3 of ‘Mum’ begins on BBC 2 next month. Series 1 and 2 are available on iPlayer.
MEET THE REST OF THE CAST
Dorothy Atkinson – plays Pauline, partner of Cathy’s brother Derek
What do you like most and least about your character?
She’s not a likeable character, she’s always ‘on’; putting on airs. She’s a snob and desperate to be seen to be tasteful and doing the right thing. She has so little self-awareness in that she doesn’t realise nobody cares or how awful the things are that come out of her mouth. I don’t like that. But the upside is that she’s direct and there’s an absence of fuss. She’s flawed but she’s brave. Spends a lot of time hiding the fact that she’s in pain. It makes her very brittle.
Dorothy Atkinson plays Pauline (right), partner of Cathy’s brother Derek (Ross Boatman, left)
Would you have a drink with her in real life?
Yes. I’d like to get the chance to study her and find out what makes her so awful. I have this theory that whereas some nice people become nasty drunks maybe Pauline would become a really lovely person. I’d like to find out.
Do you think Cathy and Michael should get together?
Yes! The nation is begging for them to kiss. I love the show for investigating all the different sorts of love – it’s so positive and so hopeful and they are both so loveable.
Were you surprised when Mum became such a big hit?
No. From the first reading the story just sang to me. It’s not big and shouty – it’s really intriguing. I’d always been a huge fan of Him & Her and Stefan’s brilliant writing. This is a slow whisper of a comedy and it feels so real. I think that’s what’s captured the public’s imagination.
Apart from Cathy, who is TV’s greatest mum?
I have two favourites and they’re a sort of yin and yang. I love Mrs Cunningham in Happy Days who was like a fairytale mum – she reminded me of my own mum. I was lucky and had a very happy childhood. But I also love Julie Walters character Petula Gordino in Dinner ladies. She was completely dysfunctional and outrageous, so bold and daft.
What’s been your strangest Mum fan encounter?
I was in Soho with my cousin who was visiting from Canada. I was just telling her about Mum when this person dressed as a clown, with a big red nose and sparkly wig, leapt out into the street, saw me and screamed: ‘Pauline! I love you!’
What is your happiest memory from working on the show?
My birthday last year when we were all working and based in a hotel in Dorking. All the cast went for an Italian meal then came back and mucked about in the hotel’s large garden. I remember thinking ‘it doesn’t get better than this.’ That and working with Stefan, who is a fabulous writer and amazing person.
Lisa McGrillis – plays Kelly, the girlfriend of Cathy’s son Jason
What do you like most and least about your character?
I love how kind she is. Although she often says the wrong thing – she doesn’t think before she speaks – she’s so warm-hearted. She’s just great to play. I do hate how many digestive biscuits she eats in this series. She’s eating in every scene. It makes it hard to maintain a long monologue with a mouthful of biscuits. I’m actually really defensive of her – she’s NOT thick (critics and fans alike think she is). She might be a bit dippy but she’s good at observing human behaviour.
Lisa McGrillis – plays Kelly, the girlfriend of Cathy’s son Jason
Would you have a drink with her?
Yes. She’s funny. And she’d probably teach me how to do a good French plait in my hair.
Should Cathy and Michael get together?
Yes. They’re meant for each other. They make each other laugh and they’re lifelong friends. This is their second chance at happiness. They should take it.
Were you surprised the show is such a hit?
As soon as I read it I knew it was special. I’ve never wanted to get a job so much. You have two of the country’s finest actors fronting it and they’ve helped create a really special world.
What do you think has so captured the public imagination?
The world that’s been created is so identifiable. People love it because it makes them laugh and cry all in the same ten seconds.
Who is your favourite TV mum?
Pam Shipman from Gavin and Stacey. She clearly adores her child more than anything in the world, all his friends are in love with her – and she loves getting on the wine.
What’s been your most memorable Mum fan encounter?
I was at the airport with my two-year-old son having returned to London on a long-haul flight and we were queuing to come back through immigration. He was being tricky and I was pretty much at the end of my tether. The woman on the desk, who had a stern face and scarcely looked up, suddenly recognised me and said: ‘You’re nothing like your character in real life.’ I thought it was hilarious.
What is your happiest memory from working on the show?
This incredible ensemble of actors – the funniest, kindest, most talented people I’ve worked with. We’ve become really good friends – we socialise together. And I think that’s helped create that world on the show.
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Ross Boatman – plays Derek, Cathy’s brother
What do you like most and least about your character?
Derek is a bit shallow, a bit silly and vain – and he thinks he has his finger on the pulse of what it means to be a modern man and he couldn’t be more wrong. A lot of what he thinks about political issues and women many people would find offensive. But I love the fact that he has an intrinsic goodness. He’s full of love, he wants to be loved and he wants everybody to be happy. What I don’t like is that he’s a bit fat. I saw footage recently and he could really stand to go on a diet.
Would you have a drink with Derek?
Absolutely. I’ve had a drink with many Dereks in my time. I wouldn’t want to spend more than an afternoon with him though. He’d drive me mad.
Should Cathy and Michael get together?
Yes I have a lot of empathy for Cathy and Michael. I’m middle-aged, been married a couple of times, and I find myself a single parent to my two teenage boys. I love them to bits but I don’t want to end my life’s journey alone. And I don’t think Cathy and Michael should have to either.
Were you surprised the show’s been such a hit?
I’d have been surprised if it wasn’t. It’s beautifully written and beautifully performed and at its heart is a beautiful love story.
What do you think has so caught the public imagination?
I think a lot of people empathise with how difficult it is to begin a new relationship at this stage of life. Cathy and Michael face all the difficulties and obstacles we all face in new relationships. They’re very real and relatable. People are moved by them. The other characters are great too. However silly they may be at times they all have depth and vulnerability and they all love each other very much.
What’s been your best Mum fan encounter?
I used to be on London’s Burning but left that 25 years ago – it’s just lovely to have people recognise me for this series.
What’s your happiest memory from working on the show?
Learning Dot (Dorothy Atkinson) was playing alongside me as Pauline, my partner. I worked with her on London’s Burning and was overwhelmed with delight at working with her again.
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Sam Swainsbury plays Jason, Cathy’s son
What do you like most and least about your character?
I love the way he relates to his girlfriend Kelly and his mum. He has really warm moments with his mum. Gorgeous moments. And I like the romantic side he shows when it comes out. Playing him is a joy. I don’t like the way he talks to Michael sometimes, the way he takes the Mickey out of him. It comes from a confused place. There are times when I find it hard to say the lines and believe them.
Sam Swainsbury plays Jason, Cathy’s son. ‘I like the romantic side he shows when it comes out. Playing him is a joy’
Would you have a drink with Jason?
It might have to be a quick one. I don’t think we’d find much to chat about. It would probably be better to play Lasertag or go Go-Karting with him. One on one we might struggle for things to say.
Should Cathy and Michael get together?
Absolutely. It’s such a beautifully crafted and drawn out potential relationship so rarely seen on TV. They’ve lived lives, had loss. For them to find a second love is such a beautiful thing.
Were you surprised it has been such a hit?
Yes and no. You never really know when a show is going to be successful. But when you read the scripts – probably the best writing I’ve ever worked with – you sort of can’t see how it couldn’t be a hit.
Why has it so caught the imagination of the public?
There’s something that everyone can relate to in all these characters. Stefan is so good at writing people’s humanity. Stefan and Richard (co-director) also have courage in holding the camera on small, quiet moments and letting them play out. It’s something you rarely see on TV.
Who has been your favourite TV mum, aside from Cathy?
Ma Larkin in The Darling Buds of May. The whole family and that world was one I really wanted to visit. It was so wholesome and so charming with a sense of fun that was utterly beguiling.
What has been your most odd Mum fan encounter?
I was at the birthday party of Lisa [McGrillis, who plays Kelly, Jason’s girlfriend] and I’d been speaking with some of her friends for about an hour when one of them said: ‘How do you know Lisa?’ They’d watched the series but hadn’t recognised me. When I told them I played Jason they all said ‘no way.’ I was quite pleased. If I looked like Jason in real life I might have to have a quiet word with myself.
What has been your happiest moment on the show?
The many lovely intimate scenes I have with Lesley Manville (Cathy). She’s the most inspiring person I have ever worked with. Sometimes, after a scene with her, I’ve thought, ‘Well if it were all to end here I’d be very happy.’
Stefan Golaszewski, writer and director of ‘Mum’
What was the inspiration for the show?
I had been frustrated for a long time – though things have changed a lot in the past few years – by the presentation of women on TV. In my previous show Him & Her and in Mum I tried to find different ways of reflecting a female experience in a way that wasn’t negative, or judgmental, or from a male point of view. I wanted to show humans the way they are rather than the way TV plot or genre requires them to be. The way women have been presented on TV doesn’t reflect the way the world really is. And that always bothered me.
Stefan Golaszewski, writer and director of ‘Mum’. ‘I had been frustrated for a long time – though things have changed a lot in the past few years – by the presentation of women on TV’
Who is Cathy based on? Are any of the characters based on people within your own family?
She’s not based on any individual. That tends not to work. But Maureen, Cathy’s mother-in-law, is very similar to my own nan. She’s a very forthright, assertive character who doesn’t put up with anything. My nan’s like that.
What did you set out to create and why?
I wanted to reflect on what it’s like to be a real person, not a person within fiction and to create something warm and inclusive. None of us is perfect but on TV you often find the characters know exactly what to say to each other. In real life we don’t. Nobody finds grief, love or jealousy simple emotions. I also wanted to show there are no really bad people. There are people who find things tricky and don’t know what to do. I think that’s honest. I think things need to be investigated rather than scorned.
A decade ago you were a very successful stand-up performer of insightful monologues. Why did you retreat to writing?
It was a confidence thing. I didn’t feel confident I was doing it very well. It left me feeling low. I’ve wanted to write since I was a little boy – though nobody in my family did anything like this. It was quite an alien thing for my family. I love telling stories and I feel I’m the luckiest person to be able to write and direct these stories. It’s a privilege to be taking a show into someone’s living room and offering them something that you hope touches them or lifts them up. I love the letters and emails I get from viewers saying the show has done this for them.
Who is your favourite character and your least favourite character?
I love them all, even if they are flawed. Each of them has something lovely about them and it’s wonderful to deconstruct them as characters over a three series journey.
What is your favourite episode of Mum?
Probably Episode 5/season 2 when Michael comes over with a car full of stuff he’s taking to the dump. He and Cathy hug at the end. She’s cooking a stew and its late on a Sunday. It’s a tiny thing but the hug is something enormous.
Are Cathy and Michael going to end up together?
You’ll see.